[top-politics] Re: Definition of TOP - Systematization

echarp — 2006-09-19 17:41:06+0200

> >I do think I understand what FA are, but I am speaking of organisations > >in a much more general fashion. And am particularly including those that > >control assets, power. > > Yes. And in discussing this, when we mention what is required for > organizations in general, and the requirement is not necessary for > FAs, then I mention this. > > It is an entirely new realization, though, as far as I know, that any > democratic power structure could be enhanced by having a parallel FA. > Indeed, many nondemocratic organizations could benefit. A for-profit > corporation could benefit, as would its stockholders, employees and > customers, by having a parallel “interest group” that is an FA/DP organization.

In France a concept looks similar to this => cooperatives. They are a reminiscence of the 1871 Parisian revolution called la commune, in which they implemented the first enterprises under auto gestion.

Today, there are still remnants, and I know of enterprises which operate normally, but are in fact controlled by the workers. In one of them, called easter eggs, the employees created an association which controls the enterprise.

But even if that association only counseled, I believe it would still become a place of power. Because those that are heard can change everything!

Read more… / Lire plus…

What would then become of your ideas and your intention to sidestep the issue of power?

> Deciding to go with FA/DP and setting aside the question of the power > structure cuts through this Gordian knot. This is, I believe, a > critical realization: if the public is organized, it can control > almost any reasonably democratic structure. It can even, as > necessary, overthrow tyrants and dictators, and relatively easily.

If it controls anything, then it becomes a center of attention and power!!!

> So if the public were well-informed and well-advised, which is a > product of the kind of organization I’m talking about, it does not > need changes in the power structures, though it can easily make them > if it so decides. The problem with present power structures is simply > the absence of a structured public intelligence, not of means whereby > the public can control governments. The means exist, but the > intelligence and coordination necessary to use them does not, > generally, exist, except in defective ways that are themselves > vulnerable to manipulation.

I’m proposing to use the internet for communication. It’s the revolution that has the power and energy to change everything in human society.

> This is why I’m promoting FA/DP: it postpones finding ideal solutions > to the problem of government but instead focuses on what should be a > precondition: an awakened body politic. “Awakened” does not mean that > everybody is actively engaged in politics. That’s not going to > happen, nor should it happen. But it does mean that people become > connected with government in away that has never before been > possible in large jurisdictions.

Have you read the clue train manifesto?

What is your opinion on those ideas?

> >If it is open to “hear” what the public says, but then dismisses it > >without due process, is it really open? > > No. So due process is part of the picture. > > >(in a democratic context, this due process could be a vote) > > Right. But not just a vote, it means the full deliberative process.

We are in a society where information can flow freely, thus I’m mostly concerned with the vote itself.

I know I know, you want to organise that flow, thus the proxy-client relationship. Yet there are already many many ways to communicate: newspapers, blogs, radio, tv, phones, books, forums, chat rooms, instant messaging, meetings etc.

Isn’t the proxy-client relationship mostly a blog and its associated news feed? What if you add into that mails, instant messaging, phone, real life meeting?

I’m mostly interested in DP as a way to organise votes and propositions, through an increase in the signal/noise ratio. FAs would just be one place, but I consider all organisations interesting.

> >DP is here to increase the signal/noise ratio. But I think any > >participant should be able to propose anything. It will get interest if > >more people look it up and vote for it. > > But if it is hidden in 126,547 proposals made the same day?

It will remain hidden unless/until it gathers votes and appears on the radar of more people.

> Yes, anyone should be able to propose anything. But not necessarily > to the whole public at once. Which is next to useless anyway. Rather, > to structures that receive and respond to input. Not just “Yes” or > “No,” which is what you get from a vote, but “This is why we have not > accepted your suggestion,” followed by an explanation that shows the > suggestion was considered and was rejected after due consideration.

“parlement” is used to propose and vote, but it is designed as a forum. Thus no problem.

> What is needed is a communications structure, it is actually more > important than control. If you can communicate, you can control, > presuming that the resources are available to those who communicate.

I mostly agree yes. Control occurs through communication (unless a would be dictator developed god like powers).

> >Do public always include everybody? Can “public” be a subset of > >"everybody"? > > No. Unless you specifically define it in the usage. For example, the > English-speaking public is only that part of the public which speaks English.

Then “everybody” include everybody on the planet. That means you give control to the largest body of people who might have any sort of interest in your organisation. I’m speaking of any kind of organisation, including those that have some sort of power.

What of a small organisation being “attacked” by a much larger one? (again, I’m speaking of organisations that have some kind of power)

> > > >Membership has to be controlled or you end up at the mercy of any large > > > >body of people. > > > > > > Depends. Yes, with power structures, membership is very important. > > > But what of a government? Can a government be TOP? I think so! In > > > this case, “public” is defined as that body of people who are subject > > > to the sovereignty of the government. Citizens, in a word. All of > > > them. Including felons, by the way. > > > >I agree 100% > > > >But then, it does not include people who are not subject to the > >sovereignty of the government! > > Yes. We are talking about governments here, and the government is not > controlled by people who are not subject to it. That’s pretty basic.

It is, and this is what I’m speaking about!!!

> The structures that can be proven to work in Free Associations can be > adapted for use in power structures. DP is one obvious example. In a > power structure, it is very close to what is standard in business: > proxy democracy. DP makes it scalable. But FAs may show that much of > what we take for granted as necessary, i.e., coercion, is not > necessary, is not even truly functional. And maybe they won’t. But I > think they will. We won’t know until we try it….

I think you would discover that a FA that reaches any sort of political usefulness will become a center of attention, a power structure.

Ever heard of ATTAC? It is such an association. And lately it has come under the scrutiny of many.

(note, attac is definitely not TOP, as it is statutorily controlled by its founders)

> >[…]I agree, and [FA/DP] is a fine system. But I’m also considering power > >structures. Those that use coercion to control us, or that define what > >is legal and what is not, or that control infrastructures. > > Yes. What I’m saying is that we need to solve the communication > problem first, before we will know very well how to solve the power > control problem.

And what I’m starting to fear is that any human institution of relevance will gather power and have power control problems.

> >I’m interested. I definitely am interested in a panarchy, but I think > >power structures have to be designed. > > They do. And I’m suggesting that the problem of the design of power > structures is extremely difficult, compared to the problem of > designing communications structures. And communications structures, > theoretically, should make it possible not only to design far better > power structures, but also to implement them.

Power structures occur everywhere humans are. I’m sure AA have those too. I’m sure some organiser is using it for his own benefit, somewhere, somehow.

echarp – http://leparlement.org

[top-politics] Re: Definition of TOP - Systematization

AbdLomax — 2006-09-19 04:42:21+0200

At 05:37 PM 9/18/2006, echarp wrote: >I do think I understand what FA are, but I am speaking of organisations >in a much more general fashion. And am particularly including those that >control assets, power.

Yes. And in discussing this, when we mention what is required for organizations in general, and the requirement is not necessary for FAs, then I mention this.

It is an entirely new realization, though, as far as I know, that any democratic power structure could be enhanced by having a parallel FA. Indeed, many nondemocratic organizations could benefit. A for-profit corporation could benefit, as would its stockholders, employees and customers, by having a parallel “interest group” that is an FA/DP organization.

The corporation is not TOP, except as required by law and as the stockholders, through the Board, determine is in the interests of the corporation. The FA/DP organization, though, is TOP, practically by definition. (FA/DP organizations might still have a membership requirement, though generally it is self-defined; having a credentials committee or officer creates a potential for distortion.) You can be anyone interested in the corporation and its products or services. Including a competitor. Obviously, the members of the FA who are, say, employees of the corporation, are not generally going to reveal trade secrets to the FA. However, they might reveal them to selected customers, as they now do. The difference is that it becomes possible to have a few representatives of all customers. And all employees. And all shareholders. And, indeed, all interested competitors. DP is should make this kind of thing possible on a large scale.

Read more… / Lire plus…

From another point of view, DP should make it possible for an

ordinary person, with no staff, to belong to hundreds of interest groups and still maintain functionality in each, without going insane from the traffic.

> > Non-residents are often affected by city decisions. Non-residents, > > indeed, may be taxpayers and property owners in the city; one aspect > > of present systems in the U.S. is that these have no rights to > > participate in city decisions. So the city can decide to tax the land > > of those who have no right to participate in the decision…. Is this fair? > >It is very unfair. And I’m asking to define “public” so that it >includes those who are taxed for example. I don’t know, it may very well >be an impossible task :(

Deciding to go with FA/DP and setting aside the question of the power structure cuts through this Gordian knot. This is, I believe, a critical realization: if the public is organized, it can control almost any reasonably democratic structure. It can even, as necessary, overthrow tyrants and dictators, and relatively easily. The problem is organizing the public. In history, it has happened in a spontaneous, relatively transient manner, and typically with some “vanguard” organization that was able to lead the revolution, powered by a general public desire for change. Unfortunately, all too often, that vanguard becomes the new oppressor. Because the problem was never identified and addressed: how to organize the public without setting up a new oligarchy.

What does it mean that the public is organized? Does it mean that it is subject to the authority of some leader? That’s not public organization, in the meaning I’m using, that is dictatorship. Very efficient. And also very limited in intelligence. Big, stupid, dangerous. (Its “efficiency” means that terrible mistakes can quickly be made that would be avoided if the people involved had any say in the matter.)

Modern democracies in general have set up structures that create oligarchies. Because the public is not organized outside of government, government ends up regulating itself, and organized special interest groups have an advantage, through the media, of exerting influence against the general public interest. Were the public organized, each of these SIGs would be what it should be: a voice for a special interest, able to influence through argument and information, unable to overpower and deceive through an excess of spending in the media. The public has more resources.

So if the public were well-informed and well-advised, which is a product of the kind of organization I’m talking about, it does not need changes in the power structures, though it can easily make them if it so decides. The problem with present power structures is simply the absence of a structured public intelligence, not of means whereby the public can control governments. The means exist, but the intelligence and coordination necessary to use them does not, generally, exist, except in defective ways that are themselves vulnerable to manipulation.

This is why I’m promoting FA/DP: it postpones finding ideal solutions to the problem of government but instead focuses on what should be a precondition: an awakened body politic. “Awakened” does not mean that everybody is actively engaged in politics. That’s not going to happen, nor should it happen. But it does mean that people become connected with government in away that has never before been possible in large jurisdictions.

>If it is open to “hear” what the public says, but then dismisses it >without due process, is it really open?

No. So due process is part of the picture.

>(in a democratic context, this due process could be a vote)

Right. But not just a vote, it means the full deliberative process. In large organizations with broad interests, like a government, much of this process is delegated to committees, and from there to subcommittees, etc. Again, these are methods of noise control. Everyone cannot consider everything at the same time.

>DP is here to increase the signal/noise ratio. But I think any >participant should be able to propose anything. It will get interest if >more people look it up and vote for it.

But if it is hidden in 126,547 proposals made the same day?

Yes, anyone should be able to propose anything. But not necessarily to the whole public at once. Which is next to useless anyway. Rather, to structures that receive and respond to input. Not just “Yes” or “No,” which is what you get from a vote, but “This is why we have not accepted your suggestion,” followed by an explanation that shows the suggestion was considered and was rejected after due consideration. I’ve seen what happens with present governmental structures: you get back a “No,” and what it amounts to is, simply, “No.” Often it makes no sense, all it means is that some bureaucrat or committee, for unknown reasons, rejected it. I’m involved with a local initiative for a Chinese language immersion charter school. The group has satisfied all legal requirements. The proposal was rejected. Why? Well, comments were given, as well as the committee vote. It was clear from examining this that there was one member of the committee who simply did not want the proposal to get through; the votes on numerous measures were something like 8 to 1. The committee does not make the decision, staff does. And the staff decided based, apparently, on the negative comments of one member. I will guess that there is a whole lot of politics involved, including a general bias against charter schools on the part of the dominant political party in our state. Frustrating, because the objections that seem to have influenced the decision were essentially … not based on an understanding of what an immersion language program is….

What is needed is a communications structure, it is actually more important than control. If you can communicate, you can control, presuming that the resources are available to those who communicate.

> > What I’m saying is that, in English, the word “public” > >Sorry, this was lost, can you elaborate? > >Do public always include everybody? Can “public” be a subset of >"everybody"?

No. Unless you specifically define it in the usage. For example, the English-speaking public is only that part of the public which speaks English.

> > I think the term “public” is nearly synonymous with “open.” > >If it is, then maybe we should drop it.

Maybe. But “open” could mean “open to members,” and then “public” means that anyone many join. You can then have organizations which are TO but not TOP.

> > >Membership has to be controlled or you end up at the mercy of any large > > >body of people. > > > > Depends. Yes, with power structures, membership is very important. > > But what of a government? Can a government be TOP? I think so! In > > this case, “public” is defined as that body of people who are subject > > to the sovereignty of the government. Citizens, in a word. All of > > them. Including felons, by the way. > >I agree 100% > >But then, it does not include people who are not subject to the >sovereignty of the government!

Yes. We are talking about governments here, and the government is not controlled by people who are not subject to it. That’s pretty basic.

Rather, there are, or should be, organizations above the government in question, until there is a government of the world, which everyone is subject to. We don’t really have that now, some people think we shouldn’t. I think it’s possible without oppression, but it is not where we should start. If we set up a government without knowing how to run the institutions on a large scale, except through methods which are known to break down at a large scale and over time, a world government could indeed be seriously oppressive, with no opportunity to escape. One again, we finesse the problem by starting with Free Associations.

The structures that can be proven to work in Free Associations can be adapted for use in power structures. DP is one obvious example. In a power structure, it is very close to what is standard in business: proxy democracy. DP makes it scalable. But FAs may show that much of what we take for granted as necessary, i.e., coercion, is not necessary, is not even truly functional. And maybe they won’t. But I think they will. We won’t know until we try it….

>[…]I agree, and [FA/DP] is a fine system. But I’m also considering power >structures. Those that use coercion to control us, or that define what >is legal and what is not, or that control infrastructures.

Yes. What I’m saying is that we need to solve the communication problem first, before we will know very well how to solve the power control problem.

> > This leaves completely unanswered how the actual power structures > > function. And I like it that way. I’d rather see the new systems > > designed by the kind of intelligence I expect to arise in large FA/DP > > organization! > >You sidestep the whole notion of “power”, in an ideal world, who/what >would have power? Individuals? Caucuses?

Individuals will have individual power, which becomes mass power through caucuses, which find consensus through communication and deliberation. The public has power, already, but it has no communications structure suitable for coordinating that power.

Because an FA does not control its members — it is specifically not a government, it is not even an organization in some traditional senses — it cannot prevent a caucus from forming and acting. However, the context of an FA/DP organization makes it desirable to find consensus to the degree possible before acting, lest the action be opposed and therefore lessened in strength.

>I’m interested. I definitely am interested in a panarchy, but I think >power structures have to be designed.

They do. And I’m suggesting that the problem of the design of power structures is extremely difficult, compared to the problem of designing communications structures. And communications structures, theoretically, should make it possible not only to design far better power structures, but also to implement them.

What has always happened in revolutions is that change has come through some new idea of how to organize the people, how to run a government. That new idea hasn’t actually been tried in the context involved, typically. And quite frequently the law of unintended consequences does its dirty work, and people end up, often, worse of than before. The FA/DP “revolution” does not contain an idea of how to run the government. Rather, it simply makes it possible for people to come to an agreement about this, as well as about many other issues. You could call that an “idea of how to run the government,” but it does not specify detail. At all. It could be that the people would agree that John Q. Messiah is the best person to run the government. I rather doubt it, but if a majority of people want this, and stick to it, the minority cannot resist it. A distributed majority, in the U.S., has the power to amend the U.S. constitution. It is commonly misunderstood that it requires a supermajority. It does not. It requires 3/4 of the states to agree. Which can be, actually, less than a majority of the people, by quite a margin….

(But, of course, if it is only a thin majority, and those opposed are so opposed that they are willing to sacrifice their lives to prevent it, we’d have quite a mess, wouldn’t we? The danger of majority rule is that a determined minority can make life hell for everyone. Tyranny of the majority is just as dangerous as tyranny by oligarchs.)