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- 10/12 23:28 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 05/12 23:52 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 04/12 19:40 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 04/12 19:39 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 27/11 12:56 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 25/11 22:52 +1 collective action management system / inroads
- 25/11 14:20 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 24/11 18:08 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
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- 22/11 16:08 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
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- 10/12 23:28 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 05/12 23:52 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 04/12 19:40 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 04/12 19:39 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 27/11 12:56 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 25/11 22:52 +1 collective action management system / inroads
- 25/11 14:20 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 24/11 18:08 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 24/11 17:54 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
- 22/11 16:08 +1 Re: TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
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[top-politics] TOP oriented to individual, not organisation
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But, as you say:
After all, heterarchy (and true democracy is heterarchy) always needs code of action in order of being effective.Being effective in this case means having a code of action on all actors in politics.
And if we take away organizations, it will be very easy for individuals to hide behind organizations..Or how do you mean..?
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You can easily set code of action where you deny possibility of hiding behind organization.
ATB,
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But isn’t there a need for people to be able to rely on that a complete organization is behaving according TOP?
How want’s to check up all members of a party for instance? And how shall I value that 30% of the members in a party is TOP-certified?illegale skrev:
You can easily set code of action where you deny possibility of hiding behind organization.
ATB, Gale
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Magnus. How many politicians are in AD, except you? How many of those are willing to run TOP? If all are, than I suppose the whole organization can accept such a policy all of you obey to.
Of course, you can accept those who are not willing to run TOP, but in that case AD is not TOP anymore.
ATB,
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This is my point, AD should be an organization to rely on. I would probaly have no problem having all members to sign that the will obey TOP.
A more pratical way of doing it is to write the TOP rules into the statutes of the party.
I will propose that the day there is a certification on the table. I see the certification as a quality mark and by such, there cannot be changes constantly to it, improvements has to be decided upon in steps, after TOP-discussions ofcoruse.
And after such decision of improvemnt or change, there need to be a certain time for the before certified organizations to implement it and rewrite their statutes or other important rules.
If the organization do not implement the new TOP, the certification will be cancelled after this implementation time.
Just as it works with ISO9000 (yes,yes we engineeers hate it…but in the democary business I really see the need for certification) or similar certifications in the industry.--—-—----—-—-—---—~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “top-politics” group. To post to this group, send email to top-politics@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to top-politics-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/top-politics?hl=en--—---------———--~-
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MG wrote:
This is my point, AD should be an organization to rely on. I would probaly have no problem having all members to sign that the will obey TOP. A more pratical way of doing it is to write the TOP rules into the statutes of the party.
AD might be based on TOP politicians indeed.
I will propose that the day there is a certification on the table. I see the certification as a quality mark and by such, there cannot be changes constantly to it, improvements has to be decided upon in steps, after TOP-discussions ofcoruse. And after such decision of improvement or change, there need to be a certain time for the before certified organizations to implement it and rewrite their statutes or other important rules.
If the organization do not implement the new TOP, the certification will be cancelled after this implementation time. Just as it works with ISO9000 (yes,yes we engineeers hate it…but in the democary business I really see the need for certification) or similar certifications in the industry.
Do you want to earn verification of Tiaktiv? Do you want Tiaktiv become certificator?
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AD might be based on TOP politicians indeed.
-But since all citizens are allowed to get membership and to decide in all issues, this would meann to TOP-crtifty all citizens participating..
More practical to have the party certifed as I see it.Do you want to earn verification of Tiaktiv? Do you want Tiaktiv become certificator?
- :-) Why not? Or if we form a more self standing organization, called
TOP.
The idea of that is that all TOP certified all over the world could participate and together withhold (keep) the values and basic ideas of TOP.
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MG wrote:
AD might be based on TOP politicians indeed.
-But since all citizens are allowed to get membership and to decide in all issues, this would meann to TOP-crtifty all citizens participating.. More practical to have the party certifed as I see it.
Hmnh. There is a fundamental problem between our aproaches. You want to make certificate for an average Joe who is not even interested in politics in this very time and I want to enable those who are politically active right now to empower them with this certification. So, as long as we have different focus groups, it seems we will have different products too.
Do you want to earn verification of Tiaktiv? Do you want Tiaktiv become certificator?
- :-) Why not? Or if we form a more self standing organization, called TOP. The idea of that is that all TOP certified all over the world could participate and together withhold (keep) the values and basic ideas of TOP.
Whoever makes it, it will be some good progress from this very moment :-) ATB,
Gale--—-—----—-—-—---—~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “top-politics” group. To post to this group, send email to top-politics@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to top-politics-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/top-politics?hl=en--—---------———--~-
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More practical to have the party certifed as I see it.
Hmnh. There is a fundamental problem between our aproaches. You want to make certificate for an average Joe who is not even interested in politics in this very time and I want to enable those who are politically active right now to empower them with this certification. So, as long as we have different focus groups, it seems we will have different products too.
-Well, there is no need to certify all members expressing their will in an AD-system.
For delegates or more powerful adminstrators there is indeed. But all working inside an AD-organization on a higher level that zero (citizen) should be obliged to follow TOP-principles. The only difference I see is that you rely more on todays politicians and organizations and I more on a competing organization, aimed to take ower in the future.
So, sure, there can be different options in this, too.Whoever makes it, it will be some good progress from this very moment
-Yes! Shall we now form a formal, international organization TOP, to which all certified organizations can connect and be connected as long as they fulfill TOP as upheld and defined by this international organzation?
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MG wrote:
More practical to have the party certifed as I see it.
Hmnh. There is a fundamental problem between our aproaches. You want to make certificate for an average Joe who is not even interested in politics in this very time and I want to enable those who are politically active right now to empower them with this certification. So, as long as we have different focus groups, it seems we will have different products too.
-Well, there is no need to certify all members expressing their will in an AD-system. For delegates or more powerful adminstrators there is indeed. But all working inside an AD-organization on a higher level that zero (citizen) should be obliged to follow TOP-principles. The only difference I see is that you rely more on todays politicians and organizations and I more on a competing organization, aimed to take ower in the future. So, sure, there can be different options in this, too.
Indeed. And it should be, actually. We are far from the moment when we sould reach concensus based on experience and wider knowledge.
Whoever makes it, it will be some good progress from this very moment
-Yes! Shall we now form a formal, international organization TOP, to which all certified organizations can connect and be connected as long as they fulfill TOP as upheld and defined by this international organzation?
Maybe we should reach Stallman to help us out about creating such organisation. The problem I see in this very moment (in Tiaktiv) is the statute that has too many gaps not to be easily overtaken by the people that might be far from TOP. As long as this problem is not solved, I am not willing to link organisation directly to any decision we might find correct.
Can Tiaktiv be this international org?
We in Tiaktiv are oriented towards creating structure for TOP politics. In that manner it might be good think. Yet, Tiaktiv as formal organisation is rather weak and I do not trust to its form. So, I hope we will get into contact to Stallman (he developed GNU licence) to see how could we svolve our issue in the best manner we could.
BTW. In this very time I believe we do not need any organisation for development of any TOP definition. For an example, Tiaktiv might support one definition AD develops, or vice versa. I believe this way might solve the potential problem.
ATB,
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- :-) Why not? Or if we form a more self standing organization, called
TOP.
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The birth of political ISO certification. Talk about what a kick in the anthill that would be…
Joke aside, I agree that a certification makes sense for organizations. And I must say I find the idea of certifying individuals quite incongruous. Most if not all certifications of individuals today are done following some kind of training and standardized form of exam or assessment (thinking of doctors, lawyers, techniciancs, assermented public officers, etc).
A method that could be used to certify someone – a political figure I assume – as TOP is something I have a lot of trouble imagining. Where do you start? How can you be sure you are not only being given access to the records that go in favour of the applicant? Would it take a long time (high costs likely if so) to audit an applicant and after that to check compliance? Gale, could you give a description of how you see this in practical terms?
Best regards,
Serge
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Serge wrote:
The birth of political ISO certification. Talk about what a kick in the anthill that would be…
Joke aside, I agree that a certification makes sense for organizations. And I must say I find the idea of certifying individuals quite incongruous.
Hmh. I am thinking about manifest, not certification. Thing that explains why I as a politician accept TOP in my work.
Most if not all certifications of individuals today are done following some kind of training and standardized form of exam or assessment (thinking of doctors, lawyers, techniciancs, assermented public officers, etc).
In some time, it makes sense to make trainings for TOP politicians, as long as todays politician schools are based on regular politics where use of Internet is practically not existent. Doctors who teach young politicians in those schools regularly ignore internet. I do not blame them, as long as free info flow means completely new approach which eliminates big part of traditional doctrine.
A method that could be used to certify someone – a political figure I assume – as TOP is something I have a lot of trouble imagining. Where do you start? How can you be sure you are not only being given access to the records that go in favour of the applicant? Would it take a long time (high costs likely if so) to audit an applicant and after that to check compliance? Gale, could you give a description of how you see this in practical terms?
So. Why do I think about individual, not organization? In that way we do not have to make no speculations. All I need is my gut and feeling of what is right and what is wrong. I can write manifest for my name. It will be probably the same thing as other people who understand TOP philosophically will adopt. I know that some people who agree with that only at declarative level wont accept it and that is actually the point, as long as it is very popular among politicians to think that people are cattle/lemmings who do not deserve truth who can not respect truth, so that todays politics is just an image of what works fine. And these same people on declarative level are for free speach, freedom of information, public has the right to know and similar stuff. When I get oriented to myself only and what i feel, I do not have to think about these speculations of what other people think, which is rather importnat thing, I belive.
How does it look like? Like regular manifest. Saying what is not existing right now, what I am pissed off at, what I believe it is important and why I do things in a way I do them. Of course, to make some better thing, stuff needs to be passed through many more brains, but this is the start that makes sense to me. It has nothing to certification houses, but mere explanation why TOP anyway? What I want to do with TOP, why do I work in a TOP manner even when it is not so opportunistic and why it pays off.
In that way some other “maybe” thinkers might make final decision and become TOP which is rather important thing.
ATB,
GaleBest regards,
Serge
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Hey Gale,
Emmanuel knew about this already, so maybe you do too, but is the following pledge what you had in mind?
http://www.vpsystems.net/Nevada/?page_id=50
by the way, from what I could gather, I think this guy has lost to a republican.
Regards,
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Thx Serge.
I did not now for him.
ATB,
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25/11/06 22:52
collective action management system / inroads
S: [...]but is the following pledge what you had in mind? http://www.vpsystems.net/Nevada/?page_id=50 by the way, from what I could gather, I think this guy has lost to a republican
-M: R*epublican not *republican. example: I am a republican but not a Republican.
Proper noun vs. common noun.S: Regards, Serge
-M: I haven’t promoted this before, but I do like the idea of individual politicians using SD2-S.
In American politics(or other non-parlimentary systems), this would probably be quite useful for the Speaker of the state or federal house or senate. Citizens Forum? Maybe it could be a parallel to City Council, State Legislature, or Federal Legislature.
People , from the beginning I have promoted SD2/SD2-S as not a replacement of current political processes, but as a collective action management system that can be used for political purposes among many other purposes.
Inroads are:
And the political purposes are meant to suppliment and parallel current constitutional processes without the need of change of these.- SD2 for political parties
- SD2-S for municipal government and above, via sympathetic elected politicians
- SD2-S for large scale administration, via sympathetic appointed politicians
shanti
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